Newsvine seeding etiquette: dealing with the "red banner page" and other miscellaneous bogarts

Just happened to me again this morning.

9 votes

#1 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:33 AM EDT

Also, had no idea what category to put this under. Threw a dart.

8 votes

#2 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:42 AM EDT

Scott (Scoop) Butki

The only time I seed when there's a red banner is if it is an Associated Press story which, and I check first, has no votes.
My logic being there are some - ok myself included - who read Newsvine based not on the home page or AP feeds but based on what friends have seeded and commented on.

The harder problem for me isn't the red banner it's when you have four people seed the same story from four sources. This happened the other day with the Libby pardon.

When it's a duplicate you can say, oops, I apologize and cancel your seed (although I'm unsure if etiquette is to delete your seed or just divert people to the earlier one) but when it's a different source (i.e. W Post version of story on commuting of Libby versus the NYT one) that's... well I'd like to hear what you think should be done in that case.

2 votes

#2.1 - Sat Jul 7, 2007 4:55 PM EDT

Scott, I like to participate in more than two/three seeds. If I get kick of one I can go to the other and continue my whining. :)

5 votes

#2.2 - Sat Jul 7, 2007 5:06 PM EDT

Damn, I didn't know they allowed whining on here. I'd better get with the program!

1 vote

#2.3 - Sat Jul 7, 2007 5:29 PM EDT

Scott (Scoop) Butki

Oh yeah I have a topic set up for whining and peeving. I try to help Newsvine provide for all your emotions, your bragging, your whining, etc.

I think L. even set up a toilet or bathroom group and Cash meets all your, um, sex needs.

1 vote

#2.4 - Sat Jul 7, 2007 6:25 PM EDT

If it's already been seeded, I do as the red banner tells me--go to the original seed and discuss it there.

If I didn't get the red banner and I realize someone else already seeded it, it depends on whether my seed has gotten any attention. If people have come to discuss it, you can put a link in a comment to tell them that there's a conversation taking place elsewhere also. Or you can delete, if no one has come to your seed yet.

It's just good manners. ;)

19 votes

#3 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 8:04 AM EDT

Ageing Hippie

I've also found that items I've seeded have been reseeded, and my view is that the more people that read the seed, whether mine or the other, the better. Sometimes Doppelganger will tell you that it's been seeded and when you follow the link you find a different article from the same source.

I think that doppelganger takes time to recognise the first seed, (it takes about 20 minutes for an article to make it to the screen), so several people can seed the article before doppelganger knows it exists, even Vinestalk doesn't catch seeds until they show up in your column.

This is based on my observations, so don't take it as gospel

9 votes

#3.1 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 10:40 AM EDT

tigerblade

That's my stance. If I see the red banner, I drop the seed and go to the original discussion.

If I don't see the banner, seed the article, and then later see that it's already been seeded, I do one of two things:
1. If my seed hasn't gotten any comments, I delete it as if it never existed.
2. If my seed has gotten some comments, I'll usually put up a comment with a link to the earlier version.

11 votes

#3.2 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 10:53 AM EDT

I also factor in whether the original seed was done hours, weeks, or months ago. If it's been hours or weeks, I won't even consider re-seeding. If it has been months ago and the original seed got a weak response, I'll consider re-seeding. I also consider who submitted the original seed. If one of the "Big Guns" of Newsvine seeded the original and it got no response, I generally won't re-seed. If a newbie submitted the original and it got no response several months ago, I'll re-seed. It's not that I'm looking to steal any thunder from the newbie, but I'd like to think the exposure I could give would get more eyeballs on the seed.

Of course I've now decided that I will not seed anything for the next 3 months, so my point is moot.

6 votes

#3.3 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:09 AM EDT

DBZ

Well, the way it seems to me, a week in real time is about a year in Newsvine time. Stories get stale fast and if they don't get that initial pop, they never get found.

5 votes

#3.4 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:29 AM EDT

tigerblade

If one of the "Big Guns" of Newsvine seeded the original and it got no response, I generally won't re-seed. If a newbie submitted the original and it got no response several months ago, I'll re-seed.

What should the seeder's status have to do with it? I understand that something seeded by Walt will probably get a bigger response than something from joe schmoe, but we shouldn't overwrite someone smaller just because they don't have the name recognition as the "big guns."

If you see an 'ignored' seed from weeks ago from a lesser-known author, comment it up! Draw some attention to that user instead.

7 votes

#3.5 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:42 AM EDT

Ageing Hippie

Or better still, clip it to your column and add a comment, you can also clip it to any relevant groups.

8 votes

#3.6 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 12:03 PM EDT

What should the seeder's status have to do with it? I understand that something seeded by Walt will probably get a bigger response than something from joe schmoe, but we shouldn't overwrite someone smaller just because they don't have the name recognition as the "big guns."

If it's about getting eyeballs on the article, the person with the most friends & Watchlist adds will draw the most people to the piece. I can count on one hand the number of times I've re-seeded material, but it's always been in those instances when I thought the material was relevant enough that I thought more people should see it. In two instances that I do recall, the people who had originally seeded the articles were no longer active on the 'Vine, they hadn't posted or commented in months, so I figured re-seeding was justified.

Since I've never been an active seeder, which is one of the reasons Digg didn't appeal to me, and because I get far more enjoyment and feedback from writing, I've declared "Seed Bankruptcy" and I don't anticipate contributing any seeds for at least 90 days. I just chose to weigh in on the seed etiquette debate because it has been both a peeve and fascination of mine.

I believe I read somewhere that half the people who will ever see an online post will see it within the first 36 hours of it being posted. As schnoo said, a week in real time is like a year in Newsvine time. The window for votes and comments is a small one. As far as getting eyeballs on the article, much has to do with the circumstances of the original posting. I have long held the belief that items posted before 10:00AM Eastern Mon-Fri will get seen. Items posted after around 6:00PM Eastern Mon-Fri will likely only be seen by a small fraction of people who would see an earlier post. Items posted on a weekend will languish unseen. If the original posting fell in an undesirable window, I think we're all the more justified in trying to get more attention for the piece.

5 votes

#3.7 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 12:43 PM EDT

newsguru

Personally, when the red banner comes up I check the link given to ensure it's the same article. That may sound strange, but I've seeded many articles from local6 in florida and I'll get the red banner, but the link will be to a different article on local6, sometimes one I just seeded myself minutes earlier. In these scenarios when it's a link to a different article I just proceed and chalk it up to the red banner's ignorance.

If the red banner alert is valid and the link is to the same article, even if on a different site, I immediately stop, go to the link, and just clip the article to my column.

7 votes

#3.8 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 3:22 PM EDT

Yeah, I've noticed that also. I guess it's the way the specific websites are set up.

3 votes

#3.9 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:08 PM EDT

Pamela Drew

I agree that you need to check to make sure it is the same seed, but if its something that I really want seen clipping to my column is almost happier than seeding myself for a few reasons.

First the mechanics of seeding are a chore, even with the tools since I'm a two fingered typist and second, a clipped seed will show with my articles and be more prominent in my column than something I've seeded myself. In addition its a way of sharing that helps build cooperation and expand the views for everyone.

I've found things clipped to the columns of my favorite Viners that have resulted in discovering a user that may not have crossed my path otherwise. While there is a wonderful core group of very active participants there is a vast collection of lesser known and equally valuable voices that don't get the automatic pop to the front page or the views that an incredibly active user gets by default.

It's an easy way to share the wealth, it costs nothing for their two cents vs. yours and a valuable return for both, a win-win.

9 votes

#3.10 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 6:24 PM EDT

Agreed on that. I enjoy giving a vote and a comment to a newbie when I come across them whilst seeding, and they've been there first. It's a drag to have posted a really good story or article and have no one notice. We've all been there with that.

I'm sure there are lots of folks out there in Newsvine nowheresville who give up after awhile when no one responds to them.

6 votes

#3.11 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:52 PM EDT

Pamela Drew

Some of us cruise the Greenhouse looking for things that aren't ads and spam and there's a Greenhouse Showcase group that you can clip them to. It's a great thing to do, especially days when you get the feeling that you're not making a difference.

5 votes

#3.12 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:10 PM EDT

I always love coming across an awesome new user in the Greenhouse. I still remember when I was there and nobody would comment on my stuff.

4 votes

#3.13 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:18 PM EDT

I can see I need to check out that hot Greenhouse action.

5 votes

#3.14 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:53 PM EDT

Yes, you do!

Just beware--there's a lot to wade through in order to find the gold nuggets. But it's worth it.

And, be sure to report any asswipe advertiser types as you do. ;)

4 votes

#3.15 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 10:21 PM EDT

I have no idea what those ad guys think they're gonna get away with here. Or how many millions of eyeballs they expect to get. They keep trying though.

7 votes

#3.16 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 10:28 PM EDT

It's rather amusing.

3 votes

#3.17 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:01 PM EDT

I just perused the Greenhouse. Amazing number of advertising doofae. How many reports does it take to knock each one down, or are they looked at individually by Newsvine as each is reported?

3 votes

#3.18 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:10 PM EDT

I don't know how many reports it takes to remove anything.

Rob the Intern has the lovely job of periodically removing this crap from the Greenhouse, but if you happen upon a user who's every post is a piece of advertising, go ahead and hit the "report bug" button when you're on that user's column page, choose "spam or malicious user" from the drop-down menu, and write a very brief description of what you've found. They're usually gone pretty quickly.

3 votes

#3.19 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:13 PM EDT

Rob the Intern has the lovely job

Sounds like latrine duty.

Those guys are like roaches. Step on one and there seem to be swarms more around.

3 votes

#3.20 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:27 PM EDT

Ben Josephs

I always love coming across an awesome new user in the Greenhouse. I still remember when I was there and nobody would comment on my stuff.

We have a group for that! Greenhouse Showcase.

Do something good, scout new talent.

4 votes

#3.21 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:42 PM EDT

viki

There are lots of little variations with this thing. One, the NYT seeds never seem to get the red banner.

5 votes

#4 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 8:07 AM EDT

ArdithDeleted

Ardith, The apparent lack of an NYT reseed red banner function is a pain. Oftentimes, there is nothing listed in Top Seeds from the NYT and then all of a sudden there are three articles with the same headline on the front page.

Why do you think Newsvine doesn't have this function apply to the NYT? Hmmmm.

Also, are there any other websites in which the same thing occurs? Haven't found any.

You can reseed that chocolate piece if you want. ;^)

6 votes

#4.2 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 8:53 AM EDT

Do you (either Ardith or schnoo) find you get/don't get the red banner when using the Newsvine seed function that Newsvine gives you, or the one that is automatically set up from the NYTimes website?

2 votes

#4.3 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:43 AM EDT

eric

I never get a red banner when I seed an article from the NYT....even if it has already been seeded. Several people have told me they have the same "problem"....

3 votes

#4.4 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:49 AM EDT

I meant to say I never get a "Newsvine red banner."

3 votes

#4.5 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:51 AM EDT

I've gotten the red banner several times with NYT seeds that I've attempted to seed from within the NYT website. It takes maybe 3 or 4 seconds for it to switch from green to red, but it does happen.

2 votes

#4.6 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 10:26 AM EDT

I never get a red banner when I seed an article from the NYT....even if it has already been seeded. Several people have told me they have the same "problem"....

Do you seed from the button Newsvine provides or the one embedded in the NYT Online articles?

3 votes

#4.7 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:39 AM EDT

ArdithDeleted

Exactly what I've been doing since my start here. If you read some of the back-and-forth here, you'll get varying opinions on that.

1 vote

#4.9 - Fri Jul 6, 2007 7:23 AM EDT

Also, what to do if someone has seeded a good article, say, a week prior but has gotten no comments. One might reseed the piece, if one thinks it needs more attention. I've done that. Providing a link to the original seed is a good idea.

6 votes

#5 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 8:14 AM EDT

I don't mind at all that posters have the same seed, for example, Dennis P. McCann wanted that I move my comments to other place and not where he was posting because mine were "inferior/off topic".

The etiquette should cover that if a poster disagree with other just ignore it and continue.

Chindi was patient because she received complaints. What kind of seeded place is when I can't express an opinion if the osota doesn't like? My question is how much a subject could be "squeezed".

The rigidity about posting is what bothers me more than to have 10 Seeds of the same subject.

2 votes

#6 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:01 AM EDT

Dennis P. McCannDeleted

Go back to Chindi's and read your comments.

When I post I know that I am connected completely, is my fault that memories are short and posters forgot details?

There is an Ignore function or just like I do, read and pass by.

End of the subject in schnoo's seed and use my e-mail in the Newsvine next time. Greatly appreciated.

Thanks

1 vote

#6.2 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 10:29 AM EDT

Dennis P. McCannDeleted

It's all good, Dennis, although as I'm certain you are aware, I'm a stickler for staying on topic myself. Maybe not the original topic, but some topic.

7 votes

#6.4 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:20 AM EDT

.http://chindi.newsvine.com/_news/2007/07/02/814815-bush-commutes-libbys-prison-sentence-?last=1183681007#last_1

The missing link is founded and I hope that this is the end to our disagreement, Mr. Mccan and we move on.

26.2 - Mr. McCann

You might want to consider doing it somewhere other than in political threads about vital matters

26.3

26/4

2 votes

#6.5 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:33 PM EDT

Synthesis

If it's already been seeded, I do as the red banner tells me--go to the original seed and discuss it there.

I adhere to what Viki said here (ah...way back at #3), except I always check the original seed out. If it's just the wire, then #$%!$ it....I'll not only go ahead and seed, I'll go back and try to threadjack the wire story.

It's not that I hate the wire (okay, maybe a bit), and I do get that some people value it as a news source, but I'm just annoyed by much real estate it burns -- even in the brave new, more configurable style of the 'Vine (and isn't amazing how quickly we got used to that and started taking it for granted).

3 votes

#6.6 - Fri Jul 6, 2007 12:54 AM EDT

Adam Hobson

It seems that warning function does not work on New York Times articles and possibly other sites as well.

That's because the warning function relies quite heavily on the article's URL, and there about a million and one different URLs you can use to get to any single NYT article.

I just wish when the red banner does come up, it included a "vote for the original seed now" button so I wouldn't have to go all the way to that seed just to vote. I figure if I am willing to seed it, then I might as well at least vote for it if someone else beet me. I'd just like that voting to be a tad easier.

10 votes

#7 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:25 AM EDT

That's because the warning function relies quite heavily on the article's URL, and there about a million and one different URLs you can use to get to any single NYT article.

Ah, so. So are there other major news websites that share this same issue when people here seed? Someone on a different thread a while back said there was.

5 votes

#7.1 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:35 AM EDT

Adam Hobson

Probably, I'm just pretty sure that the NYT is one of the worst. They have the normal url, the non-registration url, the printer friendly url, individual page urls...

It all depends on how many variations of different urls will take you to the exact same article.

5 votes

#7.2 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:39 AM EDT

Killfile

Given that the red banner is almost never a false positive I think that voting for the original should happen automagically as soon as the red banner shows up.

Seriously -- can anyone explain to me the situation wherein you found something worthwhile enough to seed, but not worthwhile enough to vote for?

10 votes

#7.3 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:37 PM EDT

kill:

Given that the red banner is almost never a false positive ....

I'm not sure that's so. What newsguru said in 3.8 above and what I said in 14.2 below indicates to me that local television news/video links are a source of false positives.

Given the migration problem, which will never go away, why not simply a rule of etiquette that if a link has been duplicated, the person with the earliest time-stamp has a right to post a link to the earlier seed on the thread(s) with the later stamps?

4 votes

#7.4 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:51 PM EDT

You looking to start range wars, stranger? ;^)

3 votes

#7.5 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:11 PM EDT

schnoo:

Looking to stop them, pod'nuh.

The time-stamp is immutable and inarguable: Thus Sayest the Lord of Hosts (Servers).

What it says could command.

3 votes

#7.6 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:18 PM EDT

Not everyone would honor the Repo Code methinks.

3 votes

#7.7 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:31 PM EDT

Then round up a posse, marshal, and light out after 'em!

4 votes

#7.8 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:35 PM EDT

A. H. Min

The best option IMHO is to not seed it, but clip the seed that the other person seeded to your column. That way, readers of your column can still see it.

If I've already seeded it, then I won't delete it (it's not worth it IMHO).

5 votes

#8 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:29 AM EDT

Seeding is so difficult for me that I skip all the time, never learned how to do it because I go to different sources in the morning and read what I found interesting.

What I would like is for some owners of the seeds (not their own article) is to be more flexible, to me that stay on topic is pure baloney and not an opportunity for develop an intelligent thread, just an often use of Google.

3 votes

#9 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:32 AM EDT

det

C'mon. You've got five leaves, right? Seeding is easy. About four or five simple steps. If you find interesting articles that no one else is listing, you should seed them. Then we can rag on your threads.

5 votes

#9.1 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:23 AM EDT

sch

Why to seed when I can write my own original recipes like today? I got inspired and in a 1,2,3 I will name this recipe Sch's shhhh.

I am 50,000 in the leaderboard, I earned my badges and I am not a threat or feel threaten or pressure to be at the top. I raise enough noises in the NewsVine.

Remember, I am the Opinionated Simpleton Spoiled-Rotten Housewife.

3 votes

#9.2 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 12:16 PM EDT

Remember, I am the Opinionated Simpleton Spoiled-Rotten Housewife.

I'm sure others will now remember also.

7 votes

#9.3 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 1:21 PM EDT

Brian Ford

When seeding a NYT article, it's always best to use "their" Newsvine seed fucntion. (It's under the strong share button on all stories.

Doing so means you get a permalink and the article is lifted from behind the pay wall.
As for the red banner:

When you see it, the first thing you should do is go vote for whoever first seeded the article and comment on it there. It sucks to be scooped, but it's just common courtesy to cede the seed.

Your next option is to find another version of the story elsewhere or a related article.

If you find you've duplicated a seed, I think it's always sporting to link to the other seed in your comment section. It happens, and so long as people don't make a habit of doing it, I see no reason to make a big stink of it. Sometimes, URLs are slightly different and its a complete accident -- in other words: No red banner every showed up.

10 votes

#10 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:40 AM EDT

Brian Ford

Hrmph. Seriously mucked up my formatting on that first sentence:

When seeding a NYT article, it's always best to use their built-in Newsvine seed function. (It's under the share button on all NYT stories.

6 votes

#10.1 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:41 AM EDT

You know, I've been here 2 and a half months, and that's the first I've heard that about the NYT "share" button. Maybe it was said, but I didn't hear it. That would not be unusual.

Thanks for "sharing."

5 votes

#10.2 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:38 AM EDT

More info on share button.

5 votes

#10.3 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:41 AM EDT

dealing with the "red banner page" and other miscellaneous bogarts

That's easy. The Riddikulus spell.

5 votes

#11 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:58 AM EDT

Killfile

Got your pre-order in already have you?

5 votes

#11.1 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:39 PM EDT

I have my pre-order in since before Christmas. It comes in handy. I pre-order the book for my daughter and my niece, and give them the receipt for Christmas. And then the books come in right before their birthdays, so I give them the books for their birthdays.

They haven't caught on yet, so unless Rowling decides to throw a few more books at us, I think I'm in the clear.

Although, after this year, I guess I'll actually have to buy them presents for both.

;-)

3 votes

#11.2 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 6:15 PM EDT

Mike B

I've made similar comments on this issue before, and generally a lot of people see that it's nice to have more than one view on the subject, even if they are seen as duplicates. It's good to see this brought up in an article so we can see if peoples views have differed from back then.

5 votes

#12 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:00 AM EDT

I have a fairly liberal view on different views, but duplicate seeds are duplicate seeds. If someone is seeding the exact same article, it's a duplicate seed.

Even if someone is seeding the "Libby sentence commuted" article, but someone seeds the AP story at Yahoo and someone seeds the breaking CNN article, etc. etc., I would tend to prefer that those people try to restrain themselves and see if a "breaking" story has been seed to Newsvine from any source first. We don't need a half dozen stories that all contain the same basic information, different sources or not.

But there are valid reasons to seed a story that's closely related to another already on Newsvine. If the perspective offered is truly unique, or it offers better or more in-depth analysis, or information that wasn't available in the first article, then I think it makes a valuable contribution.

Of course, some seeders don't pay attention to what's already been seeded and what hasn't, depending entirely on Doppleganger to catch duplicates. That's why I think tag searches (see #16) before seeding are a good idea.

6 votes

#12.1 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 12:54 PM EDT

spif

Unfortunately, tag searches don't always reveal previously seeded articles. Been there with that.

2 votes

#12.2 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 1:23 PM EDT

No, tag searches aren't perfect either. But I usually try doing what I can within reason to make sure my seed is adding value and not duplicating someone else's effort.

4 votes

#12.3 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 1:27 PM EDT

Despite what Brian said above, I don't believe using the NYT share button is the best way to seed the article,

Thanks a lot, spif. I actually thought I had a plan for the future, now you've gone and thrown a monkey into the wrench of progress. ;^)

I either have to know a lot more about this stuff or else try to forget what little I already know.

4 votes

#12.4 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 1:33 PM EDT

Well, the more I think about it, maybe using the Newsvine button would be better than sending the raw URL. The raw URL doesn't tend to show up "naturally" anyway, and if we could encourage more people to use the Newsvine share feature instead, it might be more likely to cause the same URL to get submitted to the system.

3 votes

#12.5 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 1:39 PM EDT

Dennis P. McCannDeleted

Steve Andrews

I've been campaigning for a long time for newsvine to simply BLOCK people from reseeding the exact same link from the exact same source. My solution would be to simply put up a message saying "Hey this has already been seeded, click here to vote for or comment on this story". I really don't understand why this has not been done already.

5 votes

#14 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:55 AM EDT

I don't really mind, it's all about choices and I rather to read the articles/seeds of my "friendly" antagonists because their comments are more aw some and juicy.

2 votes

#14.1 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 2:00 PM EDT

Steve:

When I tried to seed this link, Yeoman Truck-Driver Dude May Cripple Romney White House Bid, and got the red bar, I clicked it and was directed to some spammy-type seed by some guy promoting video-phones or something. So I reported that seed, cleared everything and prepared to seed through the red except that the second time it directed me to a different seed, this time, oddly enough, one of schnoo's seeds to an article on the subject which I knew for certain was NOT my seed because schnoo had just told me he had not seen the video of the guy in the story he seeded and expressed interest in seeing it.

So I cleared everything again and just barrelled through the red.

2 votes

#14.2 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 2:05 PM EDT

p.s. I was wrong about Yeoman Truck-Driver Dude Crippling Romney's Bid.

It was the dog what done it.

:^{)>

2 votes

#14.3 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 2:07 PM EDT

Steve Andrews

Obviously some kinds would need to be worked out of the system, but i'm sure the technology is there to simply take people straight to the seeded article when they try to seed the EXACT same url. I understand their will be different oultets reporting different stories, but at least it might be written from a different perspective.

3 votes

#14.4 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 2:16 PM EDT

Steve Andrews

woops meant Kinks, not kinds.

3 votes

#14.5 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 2:17 PM EDT

Jack #14.2,

Something similar has happened to me several times. Like I said way back at the beginning, there are a lot of judgment calls on the fringes of this system.

Well, I sorta said that.

2 votes

#14.6 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:16 PM EDT

6.3

Mr. McCann

Libby was the lawyer of Marc Rich, hence all was conneted to the article.

1 vote

#15 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 12:20 PM EDT

Dennis P. McCannDeleted

Where art thou?

6 votes

#15.2 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:17 PM EDT

As has been noted, the URL is very important. The NYT site isn't the only site that varies its URL based on the referring source (the URL is a little different if you're arriving via an RSS feed (which usually shows RSS in the link) than if you're clicking on a link from the NYT homepage (which shows hs, for homesite, maybe) than if you're arriving via Newsvine (newsvine, 'natch)).

Despite what Brian said above, I don't believe using the NYT share button is the best way to seed the article, because using it appends all the source junk to the NYT URL that screws up Doppleganger. Usually, if I'm seeding an NYT article, I'll use the JS bookmarklet and do a first attempt at a seed using whatever URL I originally arrived with. If that doesn't come up with a red banner, then I'll close the seed window and then attempt to seed the "raw" URL (the part after .html, the ?blahblahblah stuff). The raw URL is the only URL that I can be sure at least a few other people might try, given that I know the NYT uses at least three other kinds of URLs (four, if I count the printer friendly version, which is a little different, too). If the raw URL comes up clean, I'll usually seed it, conditioned on the results of...my tag search!

I'm amazed no one has brought up a tag search yet. Tag searches don't have to be super complex, but I've come to believe that seeding etiquette demands their use. If I'm going to seed an article about the iphone, I'll go to the iphone tag page (type iphone in the search box at the top of any Newsvine page, make sure Tags is selected in the dropdown, and search). If I don't see it on the iphone page, I'll usually look at the apple page, too. I rarely do more than three tag searches; it's usually easy enough to come up with at least two "everyone should have used this tag" tags to use for a due diligence search.

If more users took a little bit of time to do a couple tag searches and tried to stick to "raw" URLs instead of seeding whatever crappy URL the site gave them, I think we'd have fewer articles. The red banner is a good tool, but it's not infallible.

5 votes

#16 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 12:49 PM EDT

spif

Oops. #12.4 was for you down here.

3 votes

#16.1 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 1:36 PM EDT

I've got to go, but one of the questions I originally had and hasn't been addressed much was:

So, what do you do if your seed you seeded first in line has been hijacked?

Maybe hijacked is not the right word. But what do y'all think is the correct response is if someone has reseeded an article over/under/around you intentionally or not? Seems like Newsvine etiquette should cut both ways. later.

2 votes

#17 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 1:41 PM EDT

Dennis P. McCannDeleted

Like so many points of etiquette, a lot of it depends on how it's handled. I just recently linked back to a seed on vas's column from a seed that chindi submitted of the same article. vas had seeded the "hs" link from NYT and chindi had seeded the "newsvine" URL. I didn't get any blowback about it, so it must not have been a big problem.

I don't see there being any point at being a big stickler about this point. Sometimes Doppleganger is just flaky. Sometimes you're dealing with someone who doesn't know how to check for prior seeds. Sometimes people have never thought about why it's a good idea to help keep the Vine pruned. I find that most people are usually open to having it pointed out if couched as a helpful tip rather than as a, "You broke rule #57 Sec. 15."

3 votes

#17.2 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 3:52 PM EDT

I go first to the conversation tracker and I have a pretty good idea of how many seeds are repeated and take my pick, if two or three, I go to the three or fourth many, depends in how "emotional" the original article is or the impact that they want to cause.

1 vote

#17.3 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 3:58 PM EDT

Dennis

#17.1 Better be careful the doctors don't remove your snarkreas while they're in there ripping stuff out.

6 votes

#17.4 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:18 PM EDT

spif

Agree on most of that. The only time it might be a big issue is if it's a big story and one has a Newsvine "scoop." Then it's 50 fat men all trying to squeeze through the same door.

3 votes

#17.5 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:20 PM EDT

That's quite an image.

5 votes

#17.6 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:28 PM EDT

The other day I watched a Bergman flick with Sven Nyquist as DP and that always gets the visual sense stimulated. Although there weren't any fat guys in the movie.

3 votes

#17.7 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:34 PM EDT

Zaki

if I get red banner I stop. If I don't I continue. It's not like I'm seeding the same exact feed. Not everything comes out of the AP...that's why I often seed stuff from Al Jazeera English & The Guardian Unlimited (UK), because unfortunately too many people in America think everything comes from CNN/NBC/ABC/CBS and nobody else exists.

4 votes

#18 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 1:47 PM EDT

Zaki

I read your seeds and articles and they are kid of.......unique.

2 votes

#18.1 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 2:49 PM EDT

Three different seeds are fine with me, anyway we have divided opinions. One for the friends (not a problem) other for the friendly and non friendly antagonists and another for impartial or neutral. Anyway, as mentioned there will be the same news from AP, CNN, et al.

It's all about choices. I like that. Bland, spicy and the right flavor.

2 votes

#19 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 1:54 PM EDT

hm, yeah...well, there are different ways of looking at it, i guess, depending on what your definition of following the rules is.

i break as many rules and laws as i can. but not in places where i value the glue of the community itself. without the "us" of newsvine, there is no newsvine. so, i kinda try to follow the rules, and it's not real difficult.

5 votes

#20 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 3:09 PM EDT

Something like it takes a Village or I understood incorrectly?

2 votes

#20.1 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 3:34 PM EDT

i've heard the line, "it takes a village to raise a child," or something like that. i'm not sure how it applies as i never read the book, but, ok. i just mean that to belong to a group as loosely strung together as is a set of rules that governs newsvine, you need to follow those rules.

otherwise, newsvine isnt newsvine, it's something else. and i like newsvine.

2 votes

#20.2 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:00 PM EDT

It seems to me that the rules changes as the game goes.

For example: I am not a whiner and this is why the tracker helps me to make choices of seeds that sometimes aren't worth the time to go through the whole process of clicking in/on it.

4 votes

#20.3 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:09 PM EDT

actually, i guess you're right - i dont see anything about this in the rules.

i guess i dont see the point of reseeding something. there is an option to flag a story as a duplicate, which i think is what i was thinking of when i was thinking of the rules. but, the point of newsvine is to collect seeded articles and publish new ones. if something has already been collected, by reseeding it, you're (not you, specifically, no offense intended) not really helping, in fact, what you're doing is cluttering up the space. not to mention taking readership away from the person who originally seeded it.

when an article is reseeded by a new or under-read user, i guess i dont mind. when an article is reseeded by a popular user, i want to strangle that user because he or she should know better (it happens oftener than it should), and because that user, in doing so, is engaging in a sort of strong-arming of the system, which is a good way to become a selfish jerk.

4 votes

#20.4 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:49 PM EDT

i break as many rules and laws as i can.

firsty

Let's call it "bending the rules", shall we? I'm on board with that with an E ticket.

3 votes

#20.5 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:24 PM EDT

hey, if yer gonna do it, you might as well do it.

3 votes

#20.6 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:27 PM EDT

The true firsty is that I try to help friends and "friendly antagonists with my vote, to me this is what asking someone to join your friends' is about. Because we don't agree we don't have to disagree about the quality of the seed.

I am not a seeder I post my own recipes that I try and I will never have the sith leave, hence why I feel carefree to post anywhere.

btw

The latest seed of Mr. Cash is very provocative but I don't have any comment when I saw the Headlines.

3 votes

#20.7 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:32 PM EDT

Ben Josephs

Rex Banner wasn't very good anyway.

3 votes

#21 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 3:58 PM EDT

Neither was Rex Manning Day.

2 votes

#21.1 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:02 PM EDT

Killfile

I thought red-banner links were ineligible for the front page (for what it's worth). Anyone know anything about that?

3 votes

#22 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:41 PM EDT

Adam Hobson

Good point. Supposedly if you seed something from a red banner, then it appears only in your column. That's why newsvine allows it.

I think since we now have public clippings, which we didn't have at first, it should just clip it instead, and do that auto vote too!

3 votes

#22.1 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:44 PM EDT

Boxes inside of boxes and wheels inside of wheels. A lot of minutiae to digest for the uninitiated.

If one majors in Newsvinology, is it a BA or a BS? ;^)

4 votes

#22.2 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:28 PM EDT

is it a BA or a BS?

I think we all know the answer to that one.

4 votes

#22.3 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:33 PM EDT

spif

I think that was ruled a ground rule double. That softball was lobbed up there and should have been hit out of the park.

3 votes

#22.4 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:37 PM EDT

Aine MacDermot

is it a BA or a BS?

I think we all know the answer to that one.

It's a PhD, thankyouverymuch. *smirk*

3 votes

#22.5 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 10:51 PM EDT

Aine.

PhD

Piling high and Deep?

4 votes

#22.6 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 10:55 PM EDT

Aine MacDermot

Please help Determined.
Pretty humorous Detritus.
Pot heads' Demesnes.
Poly-humorous Denizens.

...

3 votes

#22.7 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:14 PM EDT

Pee Here Daily.

2 votes

#22.8 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:28 PM EDT

jblossom

I thought red-banner links were ineligible for the front page (for what it's worth). Anyone know anything about that?

I believe that's true, but I have seen instances where I have seeded a story at one time and had the same story appear later under some one else's name. I can't recall whether it was the same site but it was a wire story and was identical.

Overall the red-banner system seems to work well, but there seems to be some cracks to look at.

1 vote

#22.9 - Fri Jul 6, 2007 12:51 PM EDT

jblossom

Overall this part of the system works OK from my perspective, though as you point out:

It seems to me there are no firm and fast rules here, as different situations call for different strategies and actions.

This is a new and oftentimes opportunistic technology that we're using. The negative of reseeding is that it tends to build up already popular sources while discouraging new voices. Newsvine is a money-making entity, so it is interested in making sure that big stories get as many timely views as possible. Not everything is beautiful about the "wisdom of crowds." Sometimes it's just the greed of crowds. It's like getting in line for a sale at Macy's sometimes. But that's the reality of journalism at times.

2 votes

#23 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:17 PM EDT

The negative of reseeding is that it tends to build up already popular sources while discouraging new voices.

Exactly. Multiple seeds of the same story, that are all essentially the same, clutter up tag pages, clutter up search pages, and generally make it harder to find material later. I'm not saying I do this every day, but I do use the Newsvine archive occasionally for research.

2 votes

#23.1 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:23 PM EDT

Heh. You should check out the story I seeded earlier about the baker who won second prize in a cake contest in which she was the only entrant. I see 75 votes, maybe 250 comments. It's gonna be huge. ;^)

6 votes

#23.2 - Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:57 PM EDT

ArdithDeleted

Tim Boothby

@ Schnoo

It's all good, Dennis, although as I'm certain you are aware, I'm a stickler for staying on topic myself. Maybe not the original topic, but some topic.

I know we've expanded the horizons of a few topics ;) Like squirrels to buffalo... it made perfect sense at the time hehehe

To drag myself back to the topic at hand... I've had a few that didn't get red-flagged, and a few very similar stories that came from two different sources. If it gets flagged I just drop what I'm doing and move to the conversation already going.

3 votes

#25 - Fri Jul 6, 2007 2:44 AM EDT

Angel_C

I definitely stop the seed if I get the red banner saying "this article has already been seeded". However, if I get the red banner that says something like "this subject may have already been seeded"--I go check--it's usually another totally different article, but from the same source (Live Science, Space.com, etc) that I'm seeding from. In that case, I seed anyway. If the story is a big one, I like to check what's been seeded and then go look for other takes, say the radio story link from NPR to post--perhaps I should just be putting those links in an original story??

1 vote

#26 - Fri Jul 6, 2007 10:10 AM EDT

rmagedon

Interesting question, what do you do? I am new at this, seeded an article on the 3rd, and then on the 6th one of the newsvine old timers(big point leader) seeded the same article on the 6th. I was curious then about; why did he do that, and what are the rules if any or etiquette. Being a FNG my seed did not raise an eyebrow, one vote and no comment, but the BMOC seed received lots of votes and comments. Not being sure what to think about this I started looking around newsvine, then it dawned on my, voting and commenting on my seed was to no ones personal (read that as points) benefit, but commenting and voting on the other guys seed could have some return. Pretty silly really.

I thought newsvine was about writing, sharing and discussing, not a game.

3 votes

#27 - Sun Jul 8, 2007 7:24 PM EDT

It's very likely not many people saw your seed. The reason people who have been here awhile tend to get a lot of votes and comments is that they appear on a lot of watch-lists and also are on a lot of friend-lists. That means when they post something, a lot of people see it, even if it doesn't get featured on the front-page right away.

3 votes

#27.1 - Sun Jul 8, 2007 7:35 PM EDT

I thought newsvine was about writing, sharing and discussing, not a game.

The reason people who have been here awhile tend to get a lot of votes and comments is that they appear on a lot of watch-lists and also are on a lot of friend-lists.

Until I took an active role in expanding my friend list my articles and seeds got very few votes. In my first 7 months on the 'Vine I didn't add a single person to my friend list. I accepted invites but I never made any of my own. After I started inviting people myself my vote and comment totals increased. As I've said before, it's all about getting eyeballs on the material. The best-written article or the most relevant seed will get absolutely nowhere unless you can draw people to it. Now, one of the ways to get more eyeballs on your material is for one of the BMOC's (as rmagedon put it) to comment on your article or seed. How do you do that? By getting BMOC's who would be interested in your material added to your friend list. Another way is to tag your material appropriately. Many of us have watchlists based on certain tags. Yet another way is to get your material into the right group. If only aboriginal music fans would be interested in what you've posted, you should post it to the aboriginal music fans group.

Just some idle thoughts on the matter....

4 votes

#27.2 - Sun Jul 8, 2007 7:57 PM EDT

Dan LS

There's an aboriginal music fans group!? Oh man... I've been missing out.

1 vote

#27.3 - Sun Jul 8, 2007 8:00 PM EDT